龚鹏程对话海外学者第一百一十六期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。
瑁里斯?塞姆韦尔教授（ProfessorMaurice Samuels）
美国耶鲁大学法语教授
龚鹏程：您好。法国崇尚普遍主义，这意味着国家把权利赋予给个人，而不是民族或宗教群体。一些政治左翼人士认为，这否认了少数群体经常受到歧视的现实，影响了少数群体参与公共生活。您对这个问题有什么看法？
瑁里斯?塞姆韦尔：龚教授，您好。从理论上讲，普遍主义意味着同样的法律适用于所有人，不分种族、宗教、性别等。许多国家在这个意义上，认为自己是普遍主义者。但在法国，普遍主义有了更具体的定义。
这意味着法国政府只赋予个人权利，而不是群体，并且个人必须摆脱所有特殊性才能行使这些权利。人们常说，法国的普遍主义模式需要同化。这与更加多元化的美国普遍主义模式形成鲜明对比，在那种模式中，少数群体可以要求集体权利。
法国的左派经常抱怨普遍主义被用来歧视少数族裔——例如，最近的立法规定在公立学校佩戴某些宗教差异标志是非法的。在法国，未能在政治层面承认少数群体的差异，也使得少数群体在感到自己作为一个群体受到歧视时很难要求补救。
在我的《差异的权利：法国普遍主义和犹太人》一书中，我追溯了法国普遍主义的历史，并表明它并不总是如此敌视少数族裔差异。
例如，当法国革命者在1791 年解放犹太人时，他们并没有要求犹太人放弃他们的宗教或文化差异以换取权利。在整个 19 世纪的大部分时间里，法国文化对宗教差异的公开表现非常开放。
由于特定的历史原因，这种情况在20世纪初发生了变化，这与努力消除天主教会在政治生活中的影响有关。但我认为，恢复普遍主义的历史，并强调少数族裔差异应被重视而不是被拒绝时，才有可能帮助法国人解决他们目前关于少数族裔的一些困境。
In theory, universalism means that the same law holds for all people, regardless of race, religion, gender, etc. Many countries consider themselves universalist in this sense. But in France, universalism has taken on a more specific definition. It has come to mean that the French state only accords rights to individuals, not groups, and that the individual must shed all particularities in order to exercise those rights. It is often said that the French model of universalism demands assimilation. This contrasts with the more pluralistic American model of universalism, in which minority groups can claim collective rights. The left in France often complains that universalism has been used to discriminate against minorities—for instance, recent legislation making it illegal to wear certain signs of religious difference in public schools. The failure to recognize minority difference on the political level in France also makes it difficult for minorities groups to claim redress when they feel they have been discriminated against as a group. In my book,The Right to Difference: French Universalism and the Jews, I trace the history of universalism in France and show that it has not always been so hostile to minority difference. For instance, when the French revolutionaries emancipated the Jews in 1791, they did not ask the Jews to shed their religious or cultural differences in return for rights. Throughout most of the nineteenth century, French culture was very open to public manifestations of religious difference. This changed at the start of the 20thcentury for specific historical reasons having to do with the effort to remove the influence of the Catholic Church from political life. But I think that recovering the history of universalism and highlighting moments when minority difference was valued rather than rejected, might help the French work through some of their current dilemmas regarding minorities.
龚鹏程：您为《时代》杂志撰写了一篇关于19 世纪法国霍乱爆发的评论文章。请问霍乱疫情怎样导致了法国社会的不平等以及政治经济的发展？
瑁里斯?塞姆韦尔：1832 年 3 月，霍乱袭击了巴黎。几个月内，超过 20,000人死亡，这个数目约占法国首都人口的 2%。人们有可能会突然出现病征，所以街上会出现人们突然倒在地上。伴随着大量关于疾病原因的错误信息，恐慌也随之而来。
因为许多富人在一出现危险迹象的时候就逃离了这座城市，所以使得霍乱看起来就是在以穷人为目标。城里挣扎着的群众认为这是富人故意毒害他们，而上层阶级则指控穷人传播疾病。
这是法国工业革命的开始。大量工人涌入这座城市，试图在工厂找到工作。社会不平等早已经是一个问题，但霍乱似乎放大了它，并使法国社会日益增长的阶级仇恨浮出水面。当一名左翼政治家在6 月死于霍乱，而政府拒绝为他举行国葬时，巴黎近郊的工人阶级展开了强烈的抗议。
许多读者认为维克多?雨果的小说《悲惨世界》里的故事是发生在法国大革命期间，但它实际上描述的是这场在1832 年霍乱流行期间失败的起义。正如我在《公爵夫人的背叛》一书中所述，疫情带来的混乱，也促使以德贝里公爵夫人为首的右翼武装分子企图在法国西部发动保皇党起义。
路易-菲利普国王的政府设法平息了两次起义，但政治仇恨只会变得更糟，并在随后的几十年里又引发了几次革命。
Cholera struck Paris in March of 1832. Within a few months, more than 20,000 people died—about 2 percent of the population of the French capital. The symptoms could come on so suddenly that people dropped dead in the streets. Panic ensued along with a great deal of misinformation about the causes of the disease. Since many rich people fled the city at the first signs of danger, cholera seemed to target the poor. The struggling masses of the city thought that the rich were deliberately trying to poison them, while the upper classes blamed the poor for spreading the disease. This was the beginning of the industrial revolution in France and large numbers of laborers had flooded the city trying to find work in factories. Social inequality was already a problem, but cholera seemed to magnify it and to bring the growing class animosities in French society to the surface. When a left-wing politician died of cholera in June, and the government refused to give him a state funeral, barricades went up in the working-class neighborhoods of Paris. Many readers think that Victor Hugo’s novelLes Mis?rablestakes place during the French Revolution, but it actually describes this failed revolt during the cholera epidemic of 1832. As I recount in my bookThe Betrayal of the Duchess, the chaos brought on by the epidemic also spurred right-wing militants, led by the duchesse de Berry, to attempt a royalist insurrection in the west of France. The government of King Louis-Philippe managed to quash both revolts, but political animosities only grew worse, leading to several more revolutions in the decades that followed.
龚鹏程：现实中，我们可以看到一些观点或文字明显带有对犹太人怀有敌意和歧视。媒体和政界也经常讨论对以色列的批评是否是反犹主义，而这个问题至今也没有确定答案。作为反犹太主义的学者和专家，您对此有何看法？
瑁里斯?塞姆韦尔：事实上，对于当面对以色列或反犹太复国主义的批评是否应被视为反犹主义这一关键问题时，许多学者们都存在着分歧。我想大多数人都会赞同：对以色列具体政策的批评，并不是天生的反犹太主义。同时我也认为大多数人都会赞同：以对犹太人的传统负面刻板印象（例如称以色列人嗜血）来批评以色列是反犹主义的。
当批评者说以色列无权作为犹太人的民族家园而存在时，问题将会变得更加复杂。一些人很快谴责这些批评者是反犹主义者，因为他们对待以色列的方式与其他国家不同——包括大多数拥有民族宗教的阿拉伯国家。
我同意以色列不应受到与其他国家不同的待遇，只要有国家，犹太人也同样有权拥有一个。但我也认为，给以色列的批评者贴上反犹标签，通常是没有帮助的。虽然一些批评者很可能对犹太人怀有负面情绪，但其他人本身就是犹太人，且认为他们是在以正义的名义行事。即使我不同意他们的观点，我也尊重他们的观点，我宁愿与我的对手争论，也不愿给他们贴上标签来反驳他们。
Indeed, scholars are divided on the crucial question of when criticism of Israel, or anti-Zionism, should be considered antisemitic. I think most would agree that criticism of Israel’s specific policies is not inherently antisemitic. And I think most would agree that criticism of Israel that marshals traditional negative stereotypes of Jews—for instance, calling Israelis blood-thirsty—is antisemitic. The question becomes more complicated when critics say that Israel has no right to exist as the national homeland of the Jewish people. Some are quick to denounce these critics as antisemitic because they are treating Israel differently from other nations—including most Arab countries that have a national religion. I agree that Israel should not be treated differently from other countries, and that as long as there are nations, the Jewish people have a right to one. But I also think that it is usually not helpful to label critics of Israel as antisemitic. While some critics very well might harbor negative feelings for Jews, others are Jewish themselves, and believe they are acting in the name of justice. I respect their views even if I disagree with them, and I would rather argue with my opponents than dismiss them with labels.
龚鹏程：您担任“耶鲁大学反犹太主义研究项目中心”首任主任。该中心成立于2011年，当时耶鲁大学刚刚关闭了一个类似研究中心。您能简单介绍一下您这个中心的历史吗？该中心的目的是什么，它的主要活动有哪些？
瑁里斯?塞姆韦尔：耶鲁大学反犹太主义研究项目(YPSA)成立于 2011 年。它取代了一个由非耶鲁大学教授且离开大学的人经营的类似中心。
自2000年以来，反犹太主义一直呈上升趋势，但在过去几年中，它已成为包括美国在内的世界各地的主要问题。
我指导的项目致力于了解从古至今针对犹太人的仇恨和歧视的原因和表现。虽然早期的计划主要关注当代反犹太主义，但我坚信，如果不从历史的角度看待它们，我们就无法理解当前对犹太人的威胁。因此，我指导的项目组织了专门针对反犹太主义的整个历史以及当前危机的讲座和会议。
我们向在历史、文学、心理学、社会学等各个领域研究反犹太主义方面的教职员工和学生提供研究资助。我们还定期聘请了教授反犹太主义本科课程的博士后助理。我们的大部分课程现在都在Zoom 上，所以我鼓励人们可以远程参加。如果在 YPSA 网站上注册到我们的邮件列表中，还可以在其中查看过去活动的录音。
The Yale Program for the Study of Antisemitism (YPSA) was founded in 2011. It replaced a similar center that was run by someone who was not a Yale professor and who left the university. Antisemitism has been on the rise since 2000, but in the last few years, it has become a major problem around the world, including in the United States. The program I direct is dedicated to understanding the causes and manifestations of hatred and discrimination directed against Jews from antiquity to the present. Whereas the earlier program was mainly focused on contemporary antisemitism, it is my firm belief that we cannot understand current threats against Jews without seeing them in historical perspective. So the program I direct organizes lectures and conferences devoted to the entire history of antisemitism as well as to the current crisis. We give research grants to faculty and students who are studying aspects of antisemitism in a variety of fields—history, literature, psychology, sociology, etc. We also regularly hire postdoctoral associates who teach undergraduate courses on antisemitism. Most of our programs are now on Zoom, so I encourage people to attend remotely. Please sign up for our mailing list on the YPSA website, where you can also check out recordings of past events.
龚鹏程
龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家。著作已出版一百九十多种。
办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为美国龚鹏程基金会主席。
